Author Topic: Biomass - a burning issue  (Read 24436 times)

Nick Grant

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 08:32:39 PM »
Andy H

Not assuming fixed but are assuming finite.

I'm not too worried about the exact figure but perhaps we can agree a ballpark number for % of heat or UK energy that could be met by biomass (co-generation will be main demand as we struggle to meet carbon targets given that wood is assumed to be zero C)?

Our argument is that this will be a fraction of the total, 3%, 60% I'm not too bothered. My generous guess is that it might be 10% if we plant everything we can. I don't know the figure, not my field but have not seen any figure bigger than this. Originally we thought OK so need to get UK heat demand down by factor of 10 and can then use biomass to meet heat. However then realised that (in carbon terms not renewable terms) this means that we could save more carbon by not burning that biomass.

We are not saying it is OK to burn fossil fuel, just that it is also not OK to burn biomass. If we could leave enough forest growing globally to mop up additional emissions then we could burn a bit for energy. However unless we have misunderstood something, there just isn't enough capacity - if there was we could carbon offset our way out of trouble but now I'm repeating the paper but without the benefit of editorial input.

Again we are engineers not agronomists so have not even touched on competing uses for land and solar radiation, eg food.

Nick


Andy Hamilton

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2010, 06:07:31 PM »
Hi Nick, Andy, some responses to your points

Nick writes: Not assuming fixed but are assuming finite.

Yes it is finite, but there is a lot of it. I have seen figures for biomass potential but haven't got them to hand. However if you live north of the UK urban centres, as I do, you realise that most of the land in the UK is under utilised. There are thousands of square miles of under utilised land in northern England and Scotland.

Andy writes: we would probably also need to plan for more land to be cultivated for food, and probably more for stay at home tourism etc?

I agree that careful land planning is essential. For instance the Lake district could be far more productive if the open areas were turned over to managed forestry but it might encourage more people to fly off to other places for their walking holidays. This is a key issue that the government should be addressing rather than just tinkering with technology push solutions. For instance short rotation cropping of coppices (to reduce the height of the trees) underneath wind farms is a feasible way of getting two "carbon hits" from one piece of land.

I also agree that we should have a massive investment in demand reduction (but getting support is more difficult as it isn't as sexy as new techno gizmos).

However, given the scale of the problem we need an integrated approach to carbon reduction, which utilises all the resources we have. Biomass can play a useful role in such an approach, but it needs careful planning.

Nick Grant

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 06:26:08 PM »
Hi Andy H

We had some numbers for potential resource in original draft but thought arguing about the exact number was a distraction (we got into knots re different studies, whether to include whole EU, only heat or all energy etc). If you want to dig up some numbers you are happy with that is fine but as I say we are arguing whether burning whatever this resource is, is the best thing to do in carbon terms. If you say 12% of heat can be met by biomass I won't argue, if you say 50% I'll smile and say fine if you think so, 100% I'll want to see some evidence as it might undermine our argument.

If there is a big enough resource to make a significant impact on energy supply or carbon reduction (ignoring soil CO2 release, time lags between emission and sequestration etc etc) then this would have even more benefit if we didn't burn it.

Sure if we limited all chemical energy (ie no fossil fuel) use to what we can grow less a bit for products and sequestration, burning biomass could perhaps be sustainable but we are so far off that in terms of the numbers unless we got our decimal place wrong by about 2 places.

Even if you don't buy our plea to not burn it we would like to see some analysis as to what is best yield. Heating schools, cogeneration, CHP etc etc. And then which is most efficient crop. However we convinced ourselves that it's too good to burn.

Really want to be proved wrong on this so can feel OK about burning wood and apologise to by friends who sell biomass boilers.

Nick



« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 06:34:35 PM by Nick Grant »

Nick Grant

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2010, 08:57:49 PM »
Just seen this link on Building website:

http://www.energyjustice.net/biomass

Lots on soil carbon etc which I don't claim to understand, happy to debate building related issues.

Nick

Kate de S

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2010, 10:08:33 PM »
Andy H I agree - we have to take a holistic look at land use, it is a finite resource, that's for sure.

Glanced at that site you linked to, Nick - they pick up on the 'renewable energy from waste' con. This allows the energy generated from burning wet paper bags and muddy roofing batten offcuts to count as zero carbon, despite the extremely poor output per tonne of carbon for some of these "fuels". So the other possible uses for the same waste (more paper bags, compost, construction board etc) are at an apparent disdvantage, carbon-wise. Eunomia did a great paper on this, think it was for FoE, a few years ago. If anyone is interested in the reference do PM me.

Eunomia picked up on the way that carbon emissions were all counted as equal, whenever they occured during an arbitrary100 year period.  (This meant that a CO2 emission was given the same 'weight' whether the material in question was burned at once, (in an incinerator in this instance), or the had a longer life eg as two more paper bags, and then went onto a compost heap and eventually returned to the atmosphere*.

This approach clearly totally disregarded the virtue of keeping CO2 out of the atmosphere even for short periods, thereby altering the planetary carbon balance away from the atmosphere.

I think that metric may have changed now - it certainly ought to have done. Again, its about taking a holistic look at the carbon balance and summing the various carbon flows in different scenarios. Yes, if the biological component is burned, then some gas or coal or whatever doesn't have to be, so count that by all means; but why can't we subject all the flows to the same accounting system? Rather than spuriously attributing the CO2 from burning biomass a magical "zero" status, instead, just give credit where it is due - in the forests.

Instead, we are getting ourselves into the silly situation where the more biomass we burn/gas we burn in our mini CHP boiler/'green' tarrif electricity we use/ the better we feel about ourselves (at least, if you buy into the RHI approach, you do). Or at best, we think it doesn't really matter how much we burn. Which can't be right.

*As a former compost officer I feel I should point out that in fact, if you compost your paper bag, some of the carbon in it will be sequestered for more than 100 years, and, indeed, some for more than 1000 years!

Dave Howorth

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2010, 01:31:43 AM »
Here are some comments, which I'm told are anxiously awaited, and which I hope don't cause too much offence  :P

Let me start by saying that I agree with the main thesis of the paper, and that in consequence I don't know very much about the detailed issues around burning trees etc since I think it's a very bad idea. So my comments are in two groups:
-1- the ramifications for the big picture
-2- editorial trivia

It seems self-evident to me that it's better to use biomass for almost any other purpose before considering burning it. It's also evident that it's a finite resource, and a very limited one, since our economy reached that limit several hundred years ago. So its efficient use is important.

I believe it's entirely wrong to provide incentives to encourage the use of biomass as a fuel, but then I also believe it's wrong to provide incentives for renewable heat or electricity production. Such incentives distort the marketplace and lead to perverse incentives to, for example, heat passivhauses with electrical resistance heaters. We should instead have a carbon tax and perhaps a more general energy consumption tax. Clearly, there are large economic and social issues to be worked through to make such taxes attractive.

That doesn't mean I'm against all incentives. I think biomass may well come to have an important role in transport fuels and chemical feedstocks. But that will likely come from algae and perhaps grasses, and research is needed to develop them.

I don't expect everybody will agree with the views i've expressed above, just as I don't agree with some of the wider views expressed by others both here and on the GBF. This open context is a difficulty for the paper. The paper tries to make fairly simple points, but the readers' lack of agreement about the external context makes it hard to demonstrate the importance of the point.

I don't think the AECB can distance itself from the paper: it issued a press release endorsing the paper; and the paper says AECB in large letters at the top. Given that opinion, I have some sympathy with Keith Hall's position and certainly think that a discussion at the AGM is a good idea (sadly, I won't be there).

In terms of the editorial stuff, the only thing worth mentioning is that my printed copy has weird fonts, which makes it look unprofessional. The first page is OK and a few phrases on the other three pages are in the same font, but most of the document is in what I suspect is a default font. I'd guess that all the text needs to be selected and made to have the same style or somesuch.


Nick Grant

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2010, 06:27:23 AM »
Thanks Dave, I can sleep easy now!

The argument laid out in the article was not self evident to me and we went through various thought experiments to get to where we ended up.

Alan and I did suggest that it went out just in our names and is clearly a discussion not position paper. I'm actually very uneasy about the AECB taking a position on anything as we are such a diverse bunch but that's another discussion.

The font thing happened when someone made the Pdf and is probably a microsoft issue. I'll redo on my Mac.

Thanks

Nick

Andy Hamilton

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2010, 09:21:53 AM »
Hi All,

Kate writes:

"its about taking a holistic look at the carbon balance and summing the various carbon flows in different scenarios. "

I couldn't agree more - it's very much the point I am trying to make. We need to assess Biomass within a holistic framework. We are nowhere near having this reference framework in the UK. Furthermore within a general plan their will always be a place for Biomass where the specific micro-climate, soil conditions and other resources available add up to credit on the carbon account. (the argument against Biomass is only convincing when it is shown to have a carbon deficit in all cases)

Some figures from David Mackay's Sustainable Energy - without the hot air (2009):-
MacKay quotes a figure of 0.5 W per sq. Metre yield from biomass comparing this to over 2 W per sq metre from  PV and similar figures for wind. It should be noted that most of the UK, particularly in the west, gives poor returns on PV and only some coast and upland areas, which have the 6 metres/sec average wind speed, are considered  viable for wind power.

In the UK MacKay notes current consumption of energy (2008) as 125 KWhrs per person per day. He estimates/proposes that this will drop to 68 Kw hrs/day by 2050. He gives 5 scenarios for "carbon neutral" energy supply in the UK in 2050. In each of these scenarios 7 Kwhrs/day is produced from Biomass (10% of the total). Of this 10% wood generates 7% and bio fuels 3%.

MacKay admits that these figures are speculative. However they do provide a useful context for any debate in this area.

2 other factors in this debate are:-

1. The conditions for growing timber for construction use are different to growing for fuel.

2. Growing wood for fuel often takes place on "marginal land"  which is otherwise left as grass.

Regards

Andy






Nick Grant

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2010, 03:35:23 PM »
Andy

MacKay is trying to balance the energy books in a future without fossil fuel, a worthy exercise. We are looking at building design choices now and whether it makes sense to to promote biomass heating as zero carbon (specifically new build, schools etc as per article).

We thought we were taking a more whole view. However we make no apologies for  simplifying the argument to try and see the wood for the trees.

To move this on, do you accept our proposal to consider 'tree' growing and 'tree' use as separate activities?

Tahir

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2010, 03:50:17 PM »
i still feel that there is an unanswered case for a massive investment in demand reduction (for buildings, serious energy conservation via extensive fabric measures) before investment in promoting wood as a fuel. If there is serious money available to spend on any (cost effective for uk citizens) carbon reduction measures then (effective) demand reduction + low carbon heat supply via DH should get one of the first calls on it...and this may means more than the £10k / house being discussed at the moment for refurbishment measures.

This is what mystifies me, why are we not focussing more of our time/energy on reducing consumption? It's not like we can't do it. Look at motor vehicles, since offering tax incentives on more efficient cars the market has responded magnificently, the 2011 BMW 3 series will have a sub 99g internal combustion engine option (3 cylinder turbodiesel), that's around 1/3 more efficient than a 5 year old 3 series.

It's futile looking at biomass as an answer, if we are offered similar incentives on domestic/workplace energy consumption then the market (in the absence of any useful government policy so far) will respond.

Tahir

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2010, 03:56:05 PM »
do you accept our proposal to consider 'tree' growing and 'tree' use as separate activities?

I can't see how you could lump them together. We've planted 8500+ trees now, how many of them have a defined use? Not even I know! I'm certainly not interested in them turning into firewood.

Mark Siddall

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2010, 08:48:14 PM »
Changing the philosphical boundries somewhat and getting a little off the core topic:

For a nice little run through the fagility of biomass as an energy source have a look in "Heat" by Monbiot, pp118-119. the UK has 17 million hectares of arable land. We would need 17.8 million hectares to provide 50% of the UK's heat demand. Of course trees can survive on land that is not suited to arable use but you get the picture. It is also observed that energy crops also increase the UK's water demand.

In an uncertain future where resources are limited we need to be frugal with our energy supply where ever possible - zero carbon or not. Thanks to the authors for exposing a less well appreciated truth.

Mark

P.S. Typo ammended - oops - thanks to Dave H for spotting it!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 10:13:18 PM by Mark Siddall »

Dave Howorth

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2010, 11:43:59 PM »
Quote from: Nick Grant
The argument laid out in the article was not self evident to me and we went through various thought experiments to get to where we ended up.

Yes, sorry, I should have been more explicit. I have a particular set of prejudices and given those prejudices, it seems self-evident. Other people have different sets of prejudices, which is fine and good, and some people may not have any prejudices at all. So I think it's entirely right and necessary for the paper to explain everything as clearly as possible to as wide a range of readers as possible. I was just trying to summarise my own view as quickly as possible.

Quote from: Andy Hamilton
It should be noted that most of the UK, particularly in the west, gives poor returns on PV

Quite. This is one of the reasons I'm opposed to FITs. If we were rational about wanting to cut carbon and if we thought PV was a useful component, then we should be building PV plant in Spain or North Africa for example, and not on houses in the UK.

Quote from: Tahir
why are we not focussing more of our time/energy on reducing consumption?

I think the reason is that carbon, and energy in general, is too cheap. I don't think subsidising refurbishment or new build is the right way to attack it, because that leads to all sorts of unwanted side-effects, just like FITs or RHI do. The right answer is to make carbon and energy expensive enough that the obvious thing for everybody to do is to invest in not using as much energy or carbon emissions. The tricky bit is doing that without completely destroying the economy or freezing pensioners. But there are suggestions about how to do that.

Cheers, Dave

Nick Grant

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2010, 07:45:08 AM »
By email from Robert Palgrave of Biomass Watch:

"Dear Nick,
 
good insights, I wanted to post the following on the AECB forum, but don't have access. I hope my thoughts on biomass power generation are of interest.
 
regards
 
 
Robert Palgrave
Biofuelwatch
 
The question posed here is essentially this: is biomass heating being used as a convenient, indeed lazy way of reducing a building’s operational carbon footprint? I think Nick and Alan have put forward a good case that it is.
 
But as they hint in the final footnote,  - ‘We have focussed on buildings as they are our daily concern, but the most significant emissions will be from biomass fuelled power stations and co-generation in existing ones’  - the problems caused by the belief that biomass can be a large scale climate fix extend beyond its use for heating.
 
At the heart of the issue is policymakers’ mistaken view that ‘biogenic’ emissions can be assumed to be zero. Essentially the theory is that the biomass carbon you burn will be sequestered from the atmosphere by someone else growing sufficient plant material, at another place and at another time. This is highly dubious carbon accounting.
 
Where this gets very worrying is in power generation, because of the scale. UK Government sees biomass electricity as a key part of our low carbon transition, encouraging its expansion meanwhile acknowledging that indigenous supplies are inadequate.  It openly encourages large scale imports of wood pellets and wood chips as fuel. Since April 2009, the UK has had a financial support scheme for renewable electricity that rewards operators of solid biomass power stations with about £65 per MWh. That’s an uplift of about 150% on top of the wholesale price of electricity.
 
As a consequence there are now proposals and schemes in the planning system for around 35 medium to large size biomass power stations – not CHP – with a total generating capacity of nearly 5GW, and an annual consumption of around 39 million tonnes of fuel, mostly imported wood chip. The demand swamps the UK's current and potential production of timber. Were all these power stations to come on line, the annual ‘subsidy’ - paid for by all UK electricity consumers to the operators - would be around £2.5bn per year. Over 25 years, we're getting to the level of Trident.
 
Nearly all the proposals are for locations close to ports or even in ports to facilitate imports. Most of these power stations have very poor overall efficiencies. The guideline figure used by DECC is a mere 25%. The best coal-fired power stations can achieve 45%, Combined Cycle Gas Turbines even higher.
 
In order to qualify for financial support, biomass power stations have to meet a few tests dealing with ‘Carbon and Sustainability’. On carbon, the intention from 2011 is that they will have to show a carbon saving of at least 60% relative to a benchmark comparator of EU-wide fossil electricity. On the face of it that sounds impressive. However, the benchmark EU carbon intensity is misleadingly high. At 713 kgCO2/MWh, it is 23% higher than the existing carbon intensity of the UK grid. The absolute carbon intensity required of biomass electricity is therefore going to be 285 kgCO2/MWh – this is really only a 50% saving on existing UK grid electricity and far exceeds the suggested target for overall UK grid electricity in 2030 of just 80 kgCO2/MWh.
 
But the crunch is that the official methodology for calculating carbon intensity for biomass electricity assumes that all smokestack emissions are sequestered and can therefore be written down to zero. If it were so. Even if the required replacement trees were planted and brought to maturity, every year we will be creating a carbon debt by burning more of the standing trees while the new trees grow. As biomass consumption expands year on year, the carbon debt gets bigger and the rate of replanting needs to increase to have any chance of eventually paying it back. Like a loan shark operation.
 
The biomass carbon debt is explored in detail in a recent paper “The upfront carbon debt of bioenergy” from  Joanneum Research, May 2010. Available at www.birdlife.org/eu/pdfs/Bioenergy_Joanneum_Research.pdf
 
The current UK and EU policy on biomass electricity is damaging our slim chances of reducing current carbon emissions fast enough. Consumers are also being conned into paying more for ‘green electricity’ which in reality is as damaging for the climate as burning coal.  At least new coal-fired power stations are likely to be required to have carbon capture systems fitted. And the Committee on Climate Change is now recommending to Govt that new gas-fired power stations should only be built with carbon capture.
 
Biofuelwatch started out opposing the use of bioliquids on an industrial scale for transport. Those biofuels are now entering the power generation market in addition to solid biomass. At the scale proposed they are very damaging, and like solid biomass for power, are a very worrying false climate change solution.

Robert Palgrave"

Tahir

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Re: Biomass - a burning issue
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2010, 08:56:51 AM »
This is from the UK Tree Care forum:

http://www.tree-care.info/uktc/archive/2010/msg04157

Tahir

Your friends are confused.

To call upon the Global Forest Resources Assessment as a justification for not using biomass is
ridiculous. This assessment reflects the rate of deforestation in tropical forests - not really
relevant, other than one reason why to look at renewable fuels rather than finite sources such as
natural gas. Of course there is a limit to how much wood fuel is available in the UK for heating
purposes and increasing demand will lead to changes in the market place and woodland management.
These will be complex but assuming wood not burnt is sequestered ignores the natural decay of wood -
surely it's better to burn than to let decay in the unmanaged neglected woodland?

As ever the headlines don't do justice to a complex situation: in the green corner we have wood that
can't do no wrong and in the other corner we have nasty fossil fuels that can't do any right.
Burning wood instead of fossil fuels, if managed sensibly and not as some panacea to be used
blindfold, surely must have a role in reducing our carbon emissions?

Jon Heuch