Author Topic: Treated Floor Area query  (Read 9017 times)

Mark Siddall

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2010, 08:19:13 PM »
Great! With no penalty for built-in storage this new BRE interpretation I have an extra 1m2 per house. Which saves me 0.3 kWh/m2.yr. Now begining to feel a little more comfortable about whether or not this particular project will get certified.

Thanks!
Mark

Kara_Rosemeier

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2010, 09:29:03 AM »
I don't agree with the interpretation in the BRE document, particularly the requirement to include all basement areas if there is one habitable room in the basement. This would imho greatly depend on where exactly the thermal envelope sits.

Die Grundfläche ist nach den lichten Maßen zwischen den Bauteilen zu ermitteln;
dabei ist von der Vorderkante der Bekleidung der Bauteile auszugehen. Bei fehlenden
begrenzenden Bauteilen ist der bauliche Abschluss zu Grunde zu legen.

This is quite a hard nut to crack, even for a native German speaker, as the language used is not actually German, but Bureaucrats, and from experience, not many people agree on a workable translation of Bureaucrats (which entertains the courts ad infinitum). As I read it: the area used is the clear width between building elements, whereby the interior edge of the internal liner is taken as reference point. If no internal liner (plaster, plasterboard) is applied, the wall as such is the reference point.

Yet, this translation is conflicting with the passipedia entry. However, my gut feeling is that something in passipedia got lost in translation, and historical context. In previous German regulations, the floor area was calculated using clear width between walls, and then factoring in a blanket 3% "Putzabzug" = deduction for plaster.
This methodology was eliminated in the new regulation, where the actual, usable space has to be calculated. I believe this legacy issue is what caused the passipedia entry to require unfinished clear width, as they wanted to avoid the blanket deduction. Otherwise, I don't see a logic behind requesting the unfinished surface as reference point, and one really has to ask how "unfinished" is defined eg in the case of an installation layer, or -as the Austrians like to employ - a 6cm timber board in front f the structural element. Logically, the finished interior surfaces should be used as reference points. BRE is picking up on the  -outdated - 3% rule, but alert to it not being deducted from the finished area - which is entirely nonsensical.

Further to this: the passipedia entry refers to the definition of TFA as introduced with the CEPHEUS projects. There, however, auxiliary rooms within the thermal envelope are considered with 50% of their area (CEPHEUS-Projektinformation Nr. 35); this is repeated in CEPHEUS-Projectinformation No. 36 (in English), and what I am used to work with. Furthermore, it reads on page 120:
"3.1 Generally, the floor area of a room is calculated from the inner dimensions of the
   finished building. For simplification, the dimensions of the building shell may be
  used; in this case, for walls with plaster 15 mm of plaster have to be taken into
 account.
3.2 The dimensions of the finished building are the clear dimensions between walls
   without taking into account wall coatings, base boards, scrub boards, ovens,
  radiators, etc."

If passipedia refers to this only to then strikingly contradict it, I am non the wiser.

As the agreement on the calculation procedure for a reference area matters hugely, some clarification is needed, indeed.
 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 10:43:09 AM by Kara_Rosemeier »

Nick Grant

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2010, 06:42:31 AM »
Really good to know that there is a problem and to flag it up, I'm sure this will get resolved and that this grit will lead to a clear pearl!

Meanwhile I'm really enjoying learning some new German language gems such as Putzabzug although I expect I'll struggle to use it in conversation.

Really great to have your input here Kara, thanks.

Nick

Kara_Rosemeier

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2010, 06:55:32 AM »
Your welcome!
You should try Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaft once you've mastered Putzabzug. Some of the queries above were sorted with a "please clarify" request (60% of auxiliary rooms, and clear width of finished surfaces count), and I was told that an English language document defining all possible things TFA is about to be released by PHI any time now. This is where we all should knock on wood ...

Nick Grant

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2010, 07:31:47 AM »
Kara, you broke Google with that one! It suggests 'Danube Steam Navigation Company' or is that correct? I'm always pleased to be able to ask where the tram stop is in Germany, even if I can't follow the directions!

So yes, touch wood and I'm sure this will be sorted very soon.

Nick


Dave Howorth

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2010, 10:29:25 PM »
Nick, if you type Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaft into google itself, it tells you that it does indeed mean Danube Steam Navigation Company (see www.ddsg-blue-danube.at/deutsch/html/d_geschichte1.asp).

The one that has always annoyed me is its translation of 'speicher' as 'memory', whereas 'storage' is a much more useful translation if you're talking about your solar pufferspeicher. I've tried several times to suggest the alternative without success. I guess it's because the translator is written by modern computer geeks and nowadays the world is run on flash memory instead of core store. But today google translation isn't offering me any translation at all for the word.... ?

Putzabzug is interesting because it doesn't help to use the usual technique of splitting words that google doesn't understand into smaller ones. 'putz abzug' doesn't help and 'putz ab zug' is even worse.

I had trouble in that BRE document with their use of 'corridor'. I suspect that sometimes they mean corridor and other times they mean lobby. I couldn't make sense of the document without assuming that, anyway.

Mark Siddall

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2010, 10:24:16 PM »
If a corridor is treated at 60%, as BRE doc suggests, then I'm packing my bags. The area calculations would be so mean that it's stoopidly hard to achieve PH in the UK for domestic buildings (which are small, thus lossy, and in located in an often grim overcast climate). Having a hard enought time on Racecourse as it is!

Pete's interpretation is far more reasonable.

Mark

Kara_Rosemeier

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2010, 11:26:54 PM »
Well, if you believe Passipedia, then everything above ground, no matter what, is living area, ergo 100%, as long as it has the minimum height, and is not stairs. Makes sense to me, for a single family dwelling. Things get more complicated with apartments. How to go about staircases and corridors externally of the apartments in this case (assuming they are within the thermal envelope)? I suggest to cut the ties to Wohnflaechenberechnung entirely, as it really only makes sense when looking at single family dwellings or units in isolation, and come up with something sensible and universally applicable instead. Frankly, I don't see a good reason why any area within the thermal envelope should be discounted, unless it is excessive. There should be a height element (after all, we are heating volumes), but that's it in my view. There might be some people exploiting this be including large utility spaces in the thermal envelope, so this might require a maximum ratio of living spaces (with a good definition for them) to utility spaces, say 90:10. Utility space above this ratio (the exact numbers here are certainly debatable), is disregarded entirely, everything within this ratio is regarded fully. This would also give an incentive to locate activities that do not require conditioned air (like most storage for example) external of the thermal envelope. How about that?

Y Claire Jenkins

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2010, 10:04:30 AM »
I'm currently struggling to get a much loved house design into a form which is buildable as as a Passiv or near Passivhaus, and was considering adding a large basement in the hope that this would improve the PHPP figures, as well as giving us loads of storage and utility space. I agree with Kara that this might be morally dubious, as well as expensive,  but would it be technically effective?

Nick Grant

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2010, 05:08:03 PM »
Claire

This raises a different issue. If a building is struggling to hit PH due to say less than compact form, too much glazing etc, then yes making it bigger (assuming the basement is heated) can help to reduce the kWh/m2.a but it will of course increase the total kWh/a. Unless this extra space means you will take in lodgers this goes against the whole point which is to reduce energy consumption rather than to achieve a PH logo.

Or have I misunderstood you?

Nick

Kara_Rosemeier

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2010, 08:54:02 PM »
Claire

Apart from this being morally dubious, under current definition only certain basement areas can be counted towards the TFA, eg the window area of basement rooms must be a minimum of 10% of the floor area, and of course these rooms have to be within the thermal envelope. Considering this, I don't see how fitting TFA in the basement could reduce CAPEX,  as below ground insulation is usually a lot dearer than above ground insulation. In terms of OPEX: if you include storage in the thermal envelope, you are heating it - directly or indirectly. All in all, I believe you're much better off insulating the above ground spaces better, or using more efficient HRV to achieve certification.

Kara

Y Claire Jenkins

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2010, 09:07:30 PM »
Nick
Yes, that's what I meant by 'morally dubious'. I'm just trying to think around any options that don't compromise the things we particularly like about the design (which you've probably recognised as you're PHPP consulting on it!) We're not too bothered about certification, but do want very low energy use.
I was interested in this thread for the question about how storage/utility basement space should be counted, at 60% or 100% - sounds as if it would be difficult to know, but as you say, that may be beside the point.
In real life, rather than PHPP, does it make a difference if rooms are kept shut most of the time? If they don't have a heat source, then they would only be warmed by the recovered heat in the MVHR air input. So perhaps closed storage rooms or unoccupied guest rooms would naturally stay a bit cooler and contribute less to the heating demand?
Claire

Kara_Rosemeier

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2010, 09:39:09 PM »
It makes a difference -but only a small one, unless you insulate interior partitions, and use tight interior doors (it is rather difficult to maintain a temperature gradient within a well insulated building). If you'd only condition them with the unheated supply air, you'd need to somehow bypass the resistance heater, plus - as the ventilation system is usually cascading - rooms further down the chain will also be supplied with unheated air; and of course the amount of recovered energy from air you use to condition storage rooms would be lost for conditioning the spaces you actually live in.

Back to PHPP: the idea behind PH is to use the supply air you need anyway as the sole means of heating. The supply air that is needed anyway would be around 30cbm per hour and person (as persons need air - not floors); with an occupancy of say 4, that gives you 120cbm air per hour. Spread over a lot more than the anticipated 30sqm per person, your air layer will get quite thin, and the amount of heat you can distribute per sqm will be rather slim, probably not enough to be comfortable. So, for many reasons (environmental, economical, technical), it is advisable to minimise spaces within the thermal envelope that are not meant for human occupancy.

Kara

Y Claire Jenkins

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2010, 10:52:33 PM »
Thanks, Kara. That makes it very clear. We're still undecided about what kind if heating we would use - I like the idea of the electric air heating, but judging by one of the other threads I was reading, it seems rather controversial here!

Nick Grant

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Re: Treated Floor Area query
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2010, 07:42:48 PM »
Whoops, sorry Claire, should have recognised your name! Too much on and we have not met yet so only the building is in my mind.

Kara, hate to disagree with you but I'm a bit of an air heating sceptic and certainly anti electric heating.

Claire, As Kara says (I agree with everything else I have ever heard her say!) the rooms will be at similar temperatures and it could be a problem if a closed off room got too cold as when you open the door to it you could get condensation as the warm air (holding more moisture) rushes in.

Ventilation wise storage rooms tend to have (a little) extract rather than supply. Without ventilation odours could build up from stored smelly stuff.

Nick