High risk EWI now being scrutinized, facing ban ?

[J Ingram]

I have no idea who plans what in my area. There isn't much planning on sustainabel energy supply or climate change adoption here at all (Ireland). We have the highest adult illiteracy rate in the EU, second to the UK. And so is the future planning ......

 ? Ok it's only wiki , but they seem to disagree with you ? not that it's really of any relavence to this discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Concerning the energy saving claims by the insulation industry:......

? those were UK gov. stats. not insulation industrys ?? not saying you have to believe them though

Saved home heating energy via extra thermal insulation has to be bought with extra money, extra energy. The balance is called ' energetic balance '.

? So does burning finite resources in poorly insulated home , I'd guess more so , no need for your balance sheet ?

All numbers including the maintenance and demolition costs have to be accounted for. CO2 equivalents for 100 years ( EPS doesn't rot that fast, keep landfilling)

?to quote you from another thread HB,  "The life time expectation for plastic foams used for EWI is 30 years" so is it 30 or 100+ , I'm confused

? inserted by me JI , sorry cant work out quote function , I'm a bit thick   ?
EDIT: its ok looks like I've sussed it , bit of a pain though .


Do you see any benifits to be gained from insulation to buildings ? and if so to what level , the Kfw70 house , for instance , do this make sense, balance the books for you?

cheers Jim

[heinbloed]

One has to be literate to read statistics. And to understand energy balance sheetings as well!

( ^d 1 For purposes of calculating the HDI, a value of 99.0% was applied, wikipedia link.) Well, the small print.....

The adult illiteracy rate in the states of the OECD: top ignorants: USA. Second:Ireland. The UK at place 3. Position 4 and 5: Canada and Australia .......all with more than 20% of the adult population being illiterate (literacy level 1-2).

They speak English in all of these nations. Children wear uniforms, learn the national antrim and march on parades, posess guns and can't buy a pint before they come back from a battle field (poverty draw of underaged). Some sort of education that is.....

.............

Quote from: heinbloed on May 22, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
All numbers including the maintenance and demolition costs have to be accounted for. CO2 equivalents for 100 years ( EPS doesn't rot that fast, keep landfilling)

?to quote you from another thread HB,  "The life time expectation for plastic foams used for EWI is 30 years" so is it 30 or 100+ , I'm confused

EWI stands for External Wall Insulation. Not for EPS ( Expanded PolyStyrol), PU, PIR, PIS etc., no confusion about this.

Landfilling is now being banned, so the incineration of demolition waste (plastics) is the only option.
Unless we live in the USA, Ireland, UK, Canada, Australia and so on.......


The meassurement in homes (U-values meassured versus calculated) has revealed  that only half of the calculated U-value is actually achieved in the average home. So half of all insulation jobs are useless - in other words. Also a UK government job, about 5 years old .......


In other words: with a 30 year life time expectation of the EWI we will have a heap of 300% of EWI on the dump and 100% on the wall. ---- within 100 years. 3 batches dumped and one batch on the wall.

The 30 year life time expectation for EWI is the official number given by the German architects society. I can confirm this number based on my own experience.

What are the calculated (better:statistically researched) numbers for EWI used by British architects?


.........

Quote from: heinbloed on May 22, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
Saved home heating energy via extra thermal insulation has to be bought with extra money, extra energy. The balance is called ' energetic balance '.

? So does burning finite resources in poorly insulated home , I'd guess more so , no need for your balance sheet ?

There is no insulant, building material manufactured and installed, maintained and demolished without the usage of finite sources.

Therefore we have to do balance sheets: energetic ones, monetarian ones and environmental ones.

  





 


















 

[J Ingram]

 

"The life time expectation for plastic foams used for EWI is 30 years"

Any idea why they consider it 30 years when we both know 'plastic foams' last much longer , as you said 100+ if they go to landfill?

There is no insulant, building material manufactured and installed, maintained and demolished without the usage of finite sources.

I agree , but insulation is commonly regarded as a product that quickly gives a return on investment in the terms you
suggest.

[heinbloed]

J Ingram asks:

Any idea why they consider it 30 years when we both know 'plastic foams' last much longer , as you said 100+ if they go to landfill?

Yes. And literature and own experience with jobs I have done some decades ago as well.

..... insulation is commonly regarded as a product that quickly gives a return on investment in the terms you
suggest.

There is a balance which needs to be done on the ROI.

Contact a civil engineer, an architect for a guided tour to show you failed EWIs in a city of your choice.
The chamber of trade and commerce might be a first point to ask, the architecture organisations as well.

There are also conferences on this issue.

[J Ingram]

Any idea why they consider it 30 years when we both know 'plastic foams' last much longer , as you said 100+ if they go to landfill?
Yes. And literature and own experience with jobs I have done some decades ago as well.

From what you're say it's not a case of the 'plastic foam' failing , because as we know they last for 100+years in landfill, more the system that holds them to the stucture or protects them from external influances , so poor design and implementation really.
I've read studies that were quite favourable about the long term durablility of EWI
Got any links to the literature or studies you refer to showing them in a negative light ? , English would be great, if possible

There is a balance which needs to be done on the ROI.

Have you got any examples  , I presume you've used and worked with them regularly.
One showing the negative balance of the cradle to grave life cycle for EWIS ,you suggest exists, would be great.
Asking the UK chamber of commerce I think might well draw a blank  

thanks Jim
 

[heinbloed]

Hm, I'm getting the point....

From what you're say it's not a case of the 'plastic foam' failing , because as we know they last for 100+years in landfill, more the system that holds them to the stucture or protects them from external influances , so poor design and implementation really.
I've read studies that were quite favourable about the long term durablility of EWI
Got any links to the literature or studies you refer to showing them in a negative light ? , English would be great, if possible

Someone calling for a national insulation scheme in another thread  hasn't done his homework. Just calls for the sake of an income........begging that's called.

Plastic foams used for EWI fail due to impact. Outgassing, introduction of water, thermal and chemical reactions, UV exposure, mechanical loads.
The phenomena is called "aging". Any material used in the building of structures is confronted with aging and failure.

Former " EPS only" EWIS manufacturers are reacting to this situation of broader knowledge with their potential  non-English continental costumers. Accept the public being informed of the nature's laws and offer a broader range of EWI systems to the broader public. But for a price which makes energy saving ideas pipe dreams.
The cheapest trash is sold where they haven't heard about it, well: haven't seen it failing. Glas beads for gold coins. The reversed situation for a colonial empire, well, it hits the poor as ever.....

Any experienced English users of EWIS in this forum who could point to a source of documented knowledge?

Isn't amazon of any use, the book shop, the public library etc. ? The university, the architects chamber, the civil engineering organisations etc.?   (Do they bother if no one is asking, if campaigners/callers are promoting their 'service' ? Who cares?)


Try to find something on the Fraunhofer home page, look there for H.M. Kuenzel and M.Seibel. Fraunhofer society is leading on the EWI science, having test sites maintained since many years.

http://www.irb.fraunhofer.de/?local=en


B.t.w.: I'm still looking for a food-proof insulant, suited for solar thermal installations outside:

http://www.aecb.net/forum/index.php/topic,3495.0.html

Bad experience with what is commonly offered (foamed PET and EPDM), popcorning, UV decay, freeze damage, You name it.  

Any experienced insulators here on the aecb forum?




 
  

[heinbloed]

Some pictures via google for those who haven't seen EWI failing:

http://www.svb-geith.de/Seite104.html

Top right = the so called giraffe pattern
bottom left = the so called cheetah pattern


http://www.udo-leuschner.de/energie-chronik/111112.htm

algae growth = green


Fire damage pictures we had before.

Interested in bird nests/cavities? Insect caves ? Rat and mice tunnels, dormice housing? Rottening of the entire wall, blow-off EWI ?

All within less than 10 years, guaranteed.  Ask. Or watch the movie linked before ("45 minutes" from NDR ).

[Ken Neal]

Heinblod, you're going way over the top in questioning my motives for calling for a Naional Insulation Scheme.  The reason that I proposed such a scheme was that I was not happy with the government's Green Deal proposals, feeling them to be unworkable and bad value for money for the clients.  Your turning to insults suggests that you are losing the argument.

Your examples seem to show that the much vaunted German efficiency has fallen down in these cases as many would seem to be due to installation failures or bad detailing allowing access to the insulation for vandals, insects and animals.  It's nice to know that German workers are as fallible as British ones.

From those pictures I would say that it might be best to incorporate a cavity between the insulation and the render rather than render direct onto the insulation.  This would reduce the pattern staining caused by the  fixings in the "cheetah" pattern.  I would want to know if the insulation boards had been joined properly in the "giraffe" pattern allowing cold bridging between the boards.  The use of half lap jointed boards might stop this type of staining.

I can only reiterate that I know of an UK EPS EWI installation that is over thirty years old and still in good working order that has not burnt down, nor has it suffered any mechanical damage nor insect or vermin infestation.

All sorts of building have all sorts of problems.  We haven't stopped using buildings or ways of building because of these problems, we either live with the problems or we find ways of fixing the problems.  We won't stop using insulation because there may be problems with some installations in certain circumstances.  There are just as many problems with solar hot water installations but we won't stop using them either, even though they might only last 25 years against the 30 to 100 years for EPS insulation depending on which of Heinbloed's estimates you wish to believe.

[heinbloed]

The laws of building physics for Ken Neal in short. He wrote:

From those pictures I would say that it might be best to incorporate a cavity between the insulation and the render rather than render direct onto the insulation.  This would reduce the pattern staining caused by the  fixings in the "cheetah" pattern. I would want to know if the insulation boards had been joined properly in the "giraffe" pattern allowing cold bridging between the boards.  The use of half lap jointed boards might stop this type of staining.

Refering to the cheetah pattern shown here:

http://www.svb-geith.de/Seite104.html

The cheetah pattern is caused by the thermal conductivity of the plugs used, Ken.
Did you miss the physics lessons at school?

An absurdity like a ventilated EWI - this is the idea of drunks. The last time I saw something like that was on the web page of a company called Viking house (or the like) who coppied it from a Norwegian cement plaster seller who  claimed one can use cement plaster on a timber frame shed when fixing ventilated EPS boards onto the walls, the cement plaster then wouldn't fall off. As it would if plastered straight onto the timber, as we know.....



The giraffe pattern is caused by capillary forces. Another law of physics, water is sucked into capillar cavities. These cavities are build-in with building elements joining each other.
The influence of frost will damage the insulant in the long term, water expands turning into sharp ice cristals in these cavities.

So back to school, Neil. Book for a beginners course on economics as well (smiley), this would do away with calling for 'mom' ( the goverment!) when building.


PS

There are enough links published here on this thread and on others in this forum where you can get scientific research documents about EWI.

With 1 or 2 hundred €s you can get a small library, more than most builders (who install EWI) have ever seen.
Start here:

http://www.irb.fraunhofer.de/?local=en
 

[Ken Neal]

A ventilated cavity would be a cosmetic solution for both problems as it would disconnect the insulation from the rain screen cladding. 

The solution for the "cheetah" staining would be to use a fully adhered system as this would prevent the cold bridging which causes the pattern staining in this instance.  Once fitted though, you are stuck with what you have unless you stick some more insulation on top of the existing.  Now that would keep the heat in and you wouldn't need to install a ridiculously large amount of solar panels and a huge accumulator to store all the hot water for weeks on end.

[heinbloed]

Two weeks ago in Frankfurt:

http://www.hr-online.de/website/rubriken/nachrichten/index.jsp?rubrik=2141&key=mediathek_44920404&gallery=1&mMediaKey=mediathek_44920404&b=0

A former office building is renovated, turned into a student accomodation.

The EPS used in the EWIS caught fire. The heat developed was so hot that trestles melted. The 6 storey building is ripe now for demolishing.
The EPS facade started burning at the bottom, within minutes the entire wall burned. Broad day-light, the police station just oposite.
Melting and burning plastic fell down and set cars ablaze:

http://www.hr-online.de/website/rubriken/nachrichten/index.jsp?rubrik=2141&key=mediathek_44920404&gallery=1&mMediaKey=mediathek_44920404&b=7

Amazing: a certified fire rated material, self-extinguishing, will hold at least 15 minutes and the blurb .......


Another one from Cologne, just last week:

http://www.euskirchen-online.ksta.de/html/artikel/1260194966686.shtml

A cinema facade, insulated with mineral wool, caught fire. The mineral wool burning in itself, eating it's way upwards.
Thanks to the fire-proof cladding (concrete) the fire brigade had difficulties reaching the fire.

[Ken Neal]

The EPS used in the EWIS caught fire.

Things don't catch fire, they are ignited by something.  Removing the source of ignition and detailing things so that any combustible insulation is protected is the answer.  Using the least combustible material is also another answer.

We don't prohibit the use of wood in buildings because it is flammable do we.  We build in protection.  Googling "new timber building catches fire" gives 3.13 million results in 0.13 seconds but we still build with timber.

Removing all insulation, as Heinblod seems to be advocating, and returning to the living conditions of the middle ages because we can't afford the fuel to heat our houses is not the answer.