Deal or No Deal

[Ebs]

So will the green deal work, NO!

Doomed to failure, will be the biggest white Elephant in history and hopefully bring about the demise of this stupid out of touch bunch of bureaucratic idiots!

The Green Deal (opps sorry GD) targets the most needy, poorly informed and vulnerable people in our society.  Look at it another way would you try and persuade your grand parents to take out any sort of monetary loan with one of the Big Six for anything!! They have got a worse track record than the Banks and that takes some doing.  The Green Deal is all about big business in collusion with the government trying to extort money out from the vulnerable in our society.
 
Anyone who thinks SAP or RDSAP updated or not, measures a buildings energy consumption, at best is a complete and utter idiot and at worst is a manipulative thief.

Anyone who thinks compiling a EPC, DEC, SAP, RDSAP etc is a skilled worthwhile profession is not fit to wipe my backside.  On the subject of wiping my backside I ran out of loo roll the morning so had to hunt around for a suitable substitute do the job, fortunately for me I happened to come across an EPC for one of my customers, Eureka at last I had found a use for it.  Our company amongst other things install PV systems and the almighties have decreed that to qualify for FIT payments at a higher rate your building has to achieve an EPC of band D or higher.  Band D EPC in electro mechanical terms means just install a combi condensing boiler.  I did however have a dilemma though should I go to the loo in the first place or should I just spend the time it would take on training my self to carry out EPC,s.

Anyone on this forum should be deeply ashamed because we all know what the Green Deal is about and we are all as a collective doing nothing to stop it and that includes me !!

Lets not forget the Golden Rule shall we (opps sorry GD) inform everybody that you know NOT to take out a Green Deal loan!!!

On the positive side though the Green Deal will add thousands and thousands of pounds to the resale price of my house because I will be able to sell it WITHOUT either the permission or interference of the Big Six and without a loan attached to it that will devalue my house by at least the same amount as the loan.  Put it another way try selling a car when the purchaser has to not only buy the car in the first place but then continue to pay of your loan!  The loan was not for the car but for wide wheels, big exhaust and furry dice that you added to it at a later date.  The aforementioned items added to the car would be classified as cosmetic additions.
 
If you can see the funny side of this my house will be sold with only 100mm of loft insulation and no cavity wall insulation at all!! It is also a Band D (EPC talk) wanted it to be a band B but was not able to afford it.  The band D certificate cost me £25.00 where as the Band D certificate would have cost me £48.00 ah well does not matter.  Just going back to my lack of cavity wall insulation my house is not of solid wall construction, although even solid walls do normally have a cavity that is often just filled with rubble. 
Wow now there is an idea if we could only make a product out of stones or rocks, stick it in a cavity and call it insulation and get the government to endorse it by providing a grant!! We could even call it ROT Wool.   

[Geoff Stow]

Reading between the lines it appears that you are not entirely happy with the proposed Green Deal.
In organising this years AECB conference I tried on several occasions to get someone from the Green Deal delivery Team to do a presentation but they were all too busy to give us a couple of hours. As I put on The AECB facebook page I was shocked to see that the training to be a Green Deal Advisor was only 3 days if you were trained in EPCs.
I do agree that there needs to be a very clear document explaining to the public on the risks of getting involved. I agree that in most cases people should be advised not to get involved especially in larger projects ie more than loft insulation. One of the things that came out of a LEAF scheme I was involved in is where do people get independent  advise on the best measures for their house. If you wanted more that loft and cavity wall insulation there was very little help available. One person had mould on their walls after contacting the EST he was advised to install insulating wallpaper and now he had insulating wall paper with mould on it. This level of incompetence will be rolled out on a larger scale by undertrained assessors and installed by undertrained operatives on a fixed price contract.
It will be chaos. 

[Ebs]

Could not agree more, it is just that you have a better way of putting things.

As an organisation what is stopping the AECB taking BRE, the Entire Green Deal set up and DECC to  The Office of Fiar Trading and Trading Standards.

Consumers are being forced to purchase a product, EPC, that does not, will not and never has worked.  I can not see the difference between purchasing an EPC that does not work or PPI insurance that does not work.  In a similar fashion to the Banking Colapse the Green Deal will collapse and then then tax payers will have to re-finance the mess, this can not be allowed to happen.

As mentioned in my thread part of our business is PV and look how DECC and the Government have treated us, but also look what happened when the Government were taken to court,they lost three times!  Ok so now the PV industry is well and truley stuffed but lets put up at least a decent fight for the poor missinformed (Government Informed) people who will get snared by the Green Deal.

Surley there most be someone in the AECB who will know how to make a proper legal stand against the Green Deal and also EPC's! Is it something to run past Green Peace, I am looking for ideas.

Technical questions and presentations to DECC or whoever about the Green Deal will get absolutly nowhere as the people who you will be trying to talk around are not technically minded in any way what so ever.

I know what you call a bunch of Bankers:

A wunch !

But I do not know what you call a department like DECC again any ideas? 

[Kate de S]

A couple of links that may be of interest:

Geoff, this one's for you http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/About-us/Press-releases/Archived-press-releases/New-energy-saving-advice-service-to-be-launched

And this is from DECC's website, it is some market research investigating how people might view the prospect of taking out a green deal:

http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/green-deal/3592-green-deal-household-model-assumptions.pdf

Th paper describes itself thus: "In order to understand the... likelihood of success of this innovative policy on the uptake of energy efficiency measures, DECC has commissioned an extensive consumer survey to assess the attitudes of consumers ... Element Energy and Cambridge Architectural Research were subsequently commissioned to produce a model of consumer uptake under the Green Deal, based on the survey results."

One sentence in this report stood out for me:
"It should be noted that the overall attractiveness of the package [of energy saving measures] remains negative (even taking into account the energy savings) for most house types."

In short, as things stand with the Green Deal, most people won't want one, and DECC knows it. Or at least having read this through a few times, that's what it looks like to me. Oddly, this finding does not seem to have been mentioned much.

I have been reading around on this quite a lot, and there does seem to be a massive gulf between what on the one hand DECC is telling itself they can persuade people to do, and on the other, the likely reality (based on what people have signed up to in the past (under other schemes, pilots, etc) and/or what they say they would do in future).

I really don't think the Green Deal (as opposed to the ECO) is going to be at all popular. In particular, all the market research makes it clear that if people do take out a green deal at all, they will tend only to go for 5 or 10 years on the whole, at least avoiding the worst of the interest payments.

However, many businesses are being hyped into investing in Green Deal accreditation, training, etc. Some of them will be able to make a return on this, via delivering the subsidised "Energy Company Obligation" aspects of the Green Deal, not all of which oblige the householder to take out a loan, and a few of which might even be half-decent jobs (possibly). However, as you fear, there is I think the spectre of desperate companies mis-selling Green Deals on the doorstep to vulnerable householders, when a more reputable business stream fails to materialise.

Ebs, I know at least a couple of consumer organsations, Which? and Consumer Focus, have this issue in their sights and it might be worth looking at what they have to say - I recollect that possibly CAB has its eye on this too. It may well be that one or more of these bodies is preparing some sort of "questions to ask before you agree to a green deal" guidance; if they aren't, you could suggest it, as they know how to write that sort of thing, and probably have a budget! Maybe you should recommend they approach AECB for technical input into advice about how plausible the "savings" claims might be.

I am in the process of writing an (extremely long) review of the Green Deal as I see it, which I hope will be available either here on the forum, or elsewhere on AECB.net. It isn't going to be a rabble-rousing document, but does contain a lot of references many of which do back up some of the points you are making. I don't represent the AECB (just an occasional hired hand!) but if you weren't at the conference, I can tell you that every time anyone mentioned the Green Deal a groan went round the room, so you are hardly alone among members!

[Ebs]

Thanks for the reply Kate.

This is not about rabble rousing and also it is not about writing long technical reports to a government department who are trying their utmost (per usual) to deceive the general public.

Can you imagine any sane member off the AECB getting involved with or pursuading a member of their family to get involved with a Green Deal Loan.

There has been enough talk on it and every forum that is half decent that has an insight into building energy performance groans at the mere mention of the green deal, not just the AECB.

How have we, who are more fortunate then most, allowed the fruadulent EPC, SAP (RD or otherwise), DEC etc etc to run unchallenged for so long.

Let face it if the future of the planet and indeed our own future depends on carbon reductions then we, the informed, know that with the current approach and relyance on the current pathetic excuses for building energy performance software that our days are certainly numbered.

Do you honestly think that by talking to BRE or DECC will make a jot of difference?

I was ploughing through some of the consultation documents on the Green Deal and although this put into a coma for a month I woke up on a Q and A section.  Anyway DECC were explaining how rigourous they had been in getting competative quoations for the soft ware to be used in the Green Deel.  WHAT !! just how stupid must we be treated before we do anything, you may as well go out for competative tendering for the next update to Windows 7and then act all suprised when Bill Gates is involved in the new programe!
BRE were always going to get it, again graon groan groan no orginisation, now, has good word to say about  BRE yet we still (the informed) do absolutly nothing.

At least the AECB care about what they are involved with, even though you tend to be a bit high brow for general builders, this issue is not for Which to sort out, this isuue was made for the AECB who have the interlectual knowhow to take DECC and BRE to task but not through long winded documents to who ever.

This has to be a legal challenge carried out by industry experts who have the support and backing or an orginisation that is independant and fair, who could that be?

[Paul Buckingham]

I had an e-mail a couple of months ago from a GD Advisor Training company trying to get me to part with £2500 to become a GD advisor. One part of this really sums up the whole GD, "the Green Deal is due for release in October 2012 which is the Governments flagship policy for improving the energy efficiency of buildings in Great Britain. Currently there are NO Green Deal Advisors trained to meet this demand." This statement demonstrates that the GD is nowhere near ready when advisor training doesn't start until 4 months before GD Day and they need "a national workforce trained and prepared". Or is it stating that up until now nobody has wanted to become an assessor because everybody has got more sense! I have copied the e-mail below with names, etc edited out. Below this is my response, I didn't get a reply!

"Good Afternoon
As I am sure you are aware, the Green Deal is due for release in October 2012 which is the Governments flagship policy for improving the energy efficiency of buildings in Great Britain. Currently there are NO Green Deal Advisors trained to meet this demand. A Green Deal Advisor is the first port of call for any consumer wishing to take advantage of the Green Deal finance options. Courses are rolling out in July (first being July 16th) which leaves a very small window (4 Months) to get a national workforce trained and prepared. A very difficult task in such a short space of time.
 
I would like to enquire if ****************** have made any commitments to train members of staff to become Qualified Green Deal Advisors?
******** are an ABBE certified Green Deal Advisor training provider and currently offering 2 options for Green Deal Adviser Training.
 
Option 1. This option is a top-up qualification for individuals who already hold the DEA - Domestic Energy Assessors qualification and have also completed the 2012 update. (2012 update is also available separately if required)
 
Option 2. The full course - Zero to Hero, This will take candidates through the whole process which includes: Domestic Energy Assessor Training, 2012 update and Green Deal Advisor Training all in one package.
I have attached the course outlines for both options and I would be very grateful for any feedback you may have. We are also running an introductory discount of 10% on the lead up to our 5th anniversary of becoming a dedicated renewable energy training provider.
Please visit our website www.*******.com for a full timetable.
If you require any further information, please don't hesitate to get in touch"

My response.

"Thank you for your e-mail.

I have been following the Green Deal debate for some time and to be blunt, I and many others cannot see it working.

The assessor training scheme costing £2500 will make most people run a mile, the DEA scheme promised plenty of work for all assessors and in reality there were so many assessors that EPC’s could be obtained for next to nothing and the assessors had little or no return for their investment to become an assessor. Up grading this DEA to Green Deal assessor status will probably attract nobody because they have already had their fingers burnt and won’t be caught again.

The government leaving 4 months to get a full work force together to run a massive national scheme is very short sighted, the construction industry does not have the full understanding of how the Green Deal is going to work and what it is supposed to achieve. Who is going to take on the Green Deal, it promises a reduction in your energy bill of more that the loan repayments so the overall bill should be lower, and then it states that in some cases the overall bill may actually rise. Most people would not risk having their homes turned upside down for a few weeks on the understanding that they may or may not have a lower energy bill at the end of it. The people that can afford to take the risk will probably be quite happy paying the energy bills they already have, the ones in fuel poverty cannot afford to take the risk so where is the Green Deal market?

Sorry to be so negative but the general feeling from many people within the industry is that the Green Deal although being, in principal, a good idea, is very unlikely to work due to many factors that DECC seem to have ignored."

I'm interested to know how many people have actually signed up to become GD Advisors, I suspect it's very few.

[treble99]

http://www.aecb.net/forum/index.php?topic=3683.0


I was hoping you kind folk could point me in the right direction as I am fairly green ( ) on many of these issues and wanted to find out more. I was looking into the possibility of becoming a Green Deal Advisor and have been offered a subsidised 6 day course at the cost is £450. This is presumably subsidised via DECC funding: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/pn12_020/pn12_020.aspx

This cost looks great compared to the £2814! (including VAT) being charged from BRE: http://www.bre.co.uk/eventdetails.jsp?id=6318
(although I assume many if not all of their students will get the subsidy as well) Anyway  I already had my doubts about the Green Deal well before looking at this thread and I recognise most of points already raised here.

From the point of view of an advisor I would add these points:

The finance interest rate hasn't been announced and unless its a tiny percentage then its going to be very unattractive:

“For example a Green Deal package worth £10,000, with an interest rate of 7.5% over 25 years, would cost £22,000 in total to pay back”

Source: http://www.homeheatingguide.co.uk/blog/green-deal-wont-deliver-in-its-current-form-warns-which.html

Furthermore apart from not knowing how much work an advisor would get, there is no idea what they would get paid either, so who is their right mind would take a training course on that basis?

I have been encouraged become an advisor by my wife as I am not currently working (currently a full time student) on the basis that it could be fruitful money wise eventually, assuming its moderately successful, but also as a good thing for my CV (some of you might even find that questionable? – would be interested in your opinions on that). Also I would expect it would broaden my knowledge and could lead to other things, like other job opportunities. So I am keen to get some feedback, even if you think I shouldn’t touch it with the proverbial. If commenting, particularly if its negative, please could you specifically state why, even if its just to state you think morally its not a good move due to the inherent nature of it potentially taking advantage of vulnerable people. I imagine this will be the case if there are advisor sales/conversion targets to meet, although is this how the operation of an advisor is going to actually work? Perhaps its naive to think it can’t work any other way!

One more thing please. Ebs, I get the idea you aren’t a fan of BRE, would you mind explaining why? Genuine question as I am new to this.

Thanks a lot.

[Paul Buckingham]

If it's anything like the EPC assessors then I wouldn't go near it. EPC assessors had to shell out about £2500 to become qualified and there was a massive push to get assessors because of the expected demand for EPC's. As it turned out there was very little work and loads of assessors, as a result you can get an EPC for about £30. I suspect the GD will go the same way.

Save your money.

[Chris Kawecki]

Something that I've been wondering about the advisors - will they have to be FSA regulated in order to give advice on loans, payback etc?

[Dave Howorth]

Something that I've been wondering about the advisors - will they have to be FSA regulated in order to give advice on loans, payback etc?

Now that is a good question! Or is Carver Mead already writing his next headline now about the future Green Deal mis-selling scandal?

[Claus Best]

No, the G.D. advisor doesn't deal with the finance side of things.  S/he assesses the home and the individuals use of property and heating and presents them with options for improvements.  They are supposed to be completely impartial and can only start their sales patter, if they are linked to any business after they have handed over the G.D. assessment report.
The Green Deal providers, like B&Q, BG,etc. are the big guys in this scheme and they will deal with the finance and probably with most other items of it.
Russell Smith from Parity Project is working hard on the G.D. conduit project,  which is trying to empower SME's and direct G.D. work their/our way within a cooperative set-up.  This should have the added benefit of pushing up standards of work of the participants since negative feedback from customers will out any business.

I think we should give the Green Deal a go and share the fantastic knowledge of the AECB members with the rest of the industry and the public.  Sure its not the greatest of models, but lets make the best of it.