Burning fascades

[Anonymous]

Obviously EPS fascades do not hold for 15 minutes in the event of a fire as UK research shows:

http://www.eurima.org/uploads/ModuleXtender/Publications/92/2012-07-02_BRE_Report_Final_275194_issue_2.pdf

Now imagine some cowboy installs EPS on a timber construction, mechanical fixing combined with plastic glue/-foam and plastic foil (“organic coating”) …….

The test done in the UK uses outdated test procedures, the fascade being installed in a corner.

Latest ISO procedures demand a shaft installation from ISO acredited labs as test standard, no deviation allowed. Which makes results worse due to the chimney effect in a shaft.

About the fire load used in this UK test: is this still the norm, does ISO not demand a higher initial load ?

It is sad to see so many greenhorns falling victim to these cowboys.

[Mark Siddall]

Hein,
What do you mean by “shaft”? Where is the location of this “shaft”? Are you refering to a drainage cavity?
(I do not have the ISO standard – whichever one it is that you are drawing upon.)

[Anonymous]

Calais isn't far away for many, maybe some hobby-builders are interested in foreign experience:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xquk2n_exclu-l-incendie-de-roubaix-filme-par-un-voisin_news

Mineralwool, the entire house not habitable anymore, sopme hundred 'home energy savers, homeless now. Well, the roadside needs no heating. Unless someone wants to put a PHfit sticker onto it……

Don't blame the metal cladding, it burned behind the brick fascade as well.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xquc1g_tour-mermoz-de-roubaix-l-apres-incendie_news?ralg=meta2-only#from=playrelon-11

[Mark Siddall]

Hein
Which thread did you post the solar house query on? (I can not find the query.)

[Anonymous]

Good interesting links HB ,
Any info on how wood fibre/cork insulants and/or phenolic EWI performed under these tests.
Do you know of any better solutions to reduce this risk with EWIS ?
Thanks James

[Anonymous]

Here about biogenic materials:

http://www.ewpa.com/Archive/2008/june/Paper_075.pdf?PHPSESSID…

About cork in particular check with the NASA/Houston (www)

[Anonymous]

After this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzA3RzJ6wyM

( at 3 minutes 50 seconds the moviemakers express their concern about their own flat)

and several more incidents the gouverment of Dubai plans to ban combustable material for facades:

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/18/250231.html

[Anonymous]

Here a fascade fire in Frankfurt (this summer) , the fascade (6 storeys) caught fully fire within 3.4 seconds (from bottom to top)
The fascade was not plastered yet, the insulation graphite EPS from STO.

The police interviewed by the press (it's headquarter on the other side of the road, hence the nice camera documentation) stated that this material worked like an accellerator ( as used by arsonists, petrol etc.).

No cavity was installed, the boards fully glued.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKeRe7FA4Gs

Check the STO home page, they have published a press release. They're wiggeling around, claiming their material is legal.

The chief fire officer of Frankfurt demands this material/method to be banned, cigarette embers can set it alight.
So the “Frankfurter Neue Presse “:

http://www.fnp.de/fnp/region/lokales/frankfurt/toedliche-gefahr-an-der-wand_rmn01.c.9884706.de.html

Use google translate or similar.

[Anonymous]

http://facadesconfidential.blogspot.ie/2010/10/guests-burned-by-death-ray-from-las.html

“F…… hell!”

[Anonymous]

Any news on the bob-the builder-certified cork insulations?

Is the British building material /-method/-system certification run on a profit orientated base as well?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

The EPS board manufacturer STO has issued a special information (“Fachinformation”) ….

Not a statement from themself about the issue, they hired a journalist who wrote something, STO calls this work an “article” …….. A legal trick, they are not responsible for other people's writing ….

http://medien.enev-online.de/infos_2012/121116_sto_brandrisiko_brandschutz_eps_daemmung.pdf

The trick is stated in the second sentence, I quote:

” Dieser Artikel basiert auf einem Text des Journalisten Erik Braunreuther “

google translate:

” This article is based on a text by journalist Erik Braunreuther “

One doesn't have to study literature to see through that veil.
This STO publication claims nowhere that this “article” is an official statement of the company…..

Funny lads, no statement from the company at all, so far ……just an “article”

The official term in German language for press statement is “Presseerklaerung” – not “article”.

Be warned.

[Anonymous]

Another one from Hannover:

http://www.haz.de/Hannover/Aus-der-Region/Garbsen/Nachrichten/Hausfassade-geht-in-Flammen-auf

[Anonymous]

Here a few reports on German public TV from within last year:

http://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/verbraucher/haushalt_wohnen/minuten667.html

http://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/verbraucher/haushalt_wohnen/waermedaemmung191.html

http://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/verbraucher/haushalt_wohnen/waermedaemmung163.html

http://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2012/waermedaemmung193.html

http://www.ndr.de/regional/waermedaemmung197.html

http://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2012/waermedaemmung193.html

http://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/verbraucher/haushalt_wohnen/waermedaemmung115.html

Just a few, I did not include any private TV stations.
And to honour the work, it was in a plumber forum where I found this list:

http://www.haustechnikdialog.de/Forum/t/149373/Teil-II-Daemmwahn-nicht-immer-macht-Energiesparen-Sinn

Have the British media picked up the issue already?

The US media seem to be at since decades, sure some experienced Anglo-American builder can share his experience here in the forum?

[Anonymous]

HB ,

EWI is not common in the UK , so probably nothing to pick up on.
estimate installed to date at Jan 2012
122,000 homes had solid wall insulation (2 per cent of homes with solid walls).
http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/stats/energy/energy-efficiency/4537-statistical-release-estimates-of-home-insulation-.pdf

Any idea of number of total EWIS installs in Germany to date ?
I saw in one article 80% of new builds in Germany use this EWIS method.

Also any idea of total number of fires and or problematic installs .
Be useful to get some figures on failure rates relative to other construction methods.

I did read a long term study from Frauhofer insti. on EWIS that was quite favourable ,but i can't locate it on thier website after various tries.
cheers James

[Anonymous]

Polystyrol – the base substance of EPS – is used for the manufacturing of NAPALM as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm

Napalm B has a commonly quoted composition of 21% benzene, 33% gasoline (itself containing between 1% and 4% (estimated) benzene to raise its octane number), and 46% polystyrene.

So a household kitchen ventilation passing through such an EPS wall, a garbage bin, Mc Donalds in the groundfloor
etc. would ad some fat to the EPS.

Imagine how many phosphor bombs on Darmstadt could have been saved if the PH had been established before 1944 …

[SimmondsMills]

Hi Heinbloed
I notice that you have been posting an awful lot of comments and links etc.
Some of the issues that these links raise are valid concerns that we all need to be assessing.
Some of your comments likewise are useful, however some comments seem a bit wild (as in not well substantiated).

What I – and others – would find much more useful – given everyone's general lack of time to take in and digest all of your posts and links – and would indeed welcome if you were able to – would be for you to summarise succinctly in one post all the concerns you have picked up over the last few months. e.g.,
1. fire risks of EPS EWI
2. degradation of insulation materials under concrete raft foundations
3. etc

Otherwise I fear that the sheer volume and spread of your posts will defeat our ability to respond / make the best of.

I am looking forward to it!

BW

Andy Simmonds

[SimmondsMills]

Heinblod
AECB Carbonlite guidance (for AECB members only) covers some of the issues you raise – or at least touches on them. It goes on to detail ways of dealing with or mitigating these risks. for example on damage to insulation:

“Adequate care must be taken to reduce the risk of insulation
damage from vermin. We now know from many authorities that this
may be a more serious problem than insulation manufacturers have
advised in the past. Insulation is a fragile material and must be
carefully protected from the risk of attack below ground. Such
materials as sheet metal, concrete paving slabs, concrete and
similar have been used.”

[SimmondsMills]

Heinblod
another example wrt fire risk for polystyrene external wall insulation

“A fire barrier may be required at intermediate floor level in external
wall insulation systems for buildings over 2 storeys, where the insulation
system employs insulation that is not of limited combustibility. With
regard to fire breaks, refer to BR 135 ‘Fire performance of external
thermal insulation for walls of multi-storey buildings’ and BS 8414
Parts 1 and 2.”

The guidance has detailed illustrations of applying these principles

[SimmondsMills]

and at the risk of starting to give away AECB member guidance for free 🙂 some more on external wall insulation and fire:

“Currently EN ISO 6946.1996 advises that where the
thermal conductivity of a fixing or part of it is less
than 1 W/mK the effect of the fixing can be
disregarded in U-value calculations. However, for
Passivhaus and Gold Standard buildings, the heat
loss from mechanical fixings through the insulation
to the substructure should be accounted for, using
the χ-value of each fixing multiplied by the number
of fixings per unit area.
The system supplier may include the losses from
mechanical fixings in their quoted U-values. Indeed,
they are supposed to do so under current rules, as
these are repeating thermal bridges. But it is clear
that many suppliers do not do this. They quote Uvalues
which exclude the impact of any of the fixings.
Alternatively, the designer may wish to request the
system supplier to quote separately the U-value for
the insulated element alone and the further χ-value
due to all the point thermal bridges. This enables
him/her to investigate the benefit and the feasibility
of using fewer, or less conductive, mechanical fixings.
A smaller number of additional fixings may also be
needed to hold the render reinforcement mesh onto
the face of the insulation before rendering. This is
particularly true when applied to high-rise buildings
and in relation to fire issues. These fixings cannot be
countersunk with heads insulated over and may
constitute further thermal bridges that should be
accounted for. It is important to develop a clear and
detailed specification with the system supplier for
the approved installer to follow.
FIRE: Using EPS, Neopor or otherwise on high-rise
or multi-storey buildings, there may be a requirement
under the Building Regulations to limit the spread of
fire on external walls, as well as to reduce the risk of
disproportionate collapse in the event of a fire. BR
135 provides guidance on the requirements to
reduce these risks. This might require the
introduction of non-combustible fire breaks
horizontally at each floor level above second floor
and vertically at dividing walls between units.
Alternatively, if a proposed system without fire breaks
is tested in accordance with the relevant BS (BS 8414
Part 1 – masonry walls, or BS 8414 Part 2 – steel frame
walls) and is assessed in accordance with BR 135,
then it is deemed to comply with the requirements.
On mechanical fixing, BR 135 states: ‘Use no fewer
than one stainless steel fixing – in addition to those of
plastics – per square metre of insulation. The fixings
should be sized and fitted to resist the increased
duty that may be required under fire conditions’.
Generally, therefore, for an EPS insulated render
system on a multi-storey building, the insulation
boards would be adhesively bonded and mechanically
fixed, usually referred to as initial fixings. In
addition, after the render and reinforcement have
been applied over the EPS, further mechanical
fixings would be inserted in stainless steel at a
minimum rate of 1 no. fixing per square metre of
wall area. Typical stainless fasteners would have a
cross-sectional area of ca. 13 mm2.
The number of initial fixings is dependent on the wind
suction forces acting on the building and the dead
weight of the system. Where insulation is being applied
in two layers, there is the added complication of the
fact that at each stage of the installation, the applied
insulation boards should be secure and able to
withstand the wind suction forces acting on them.
Therefore, for the scenario in considered in Section 3
of this guidance document both layers of insulation
boards would require ‘initial’ fixing with a similar
number of ‘initial’ fixings.
Using 4-5 initial fixings per insulation board would be
considered typical. The first layer of insulation boards need
not be fixed using the recessed head type fixings,
since these heads will be trapped behind the second
layer of insulation. The second layer can either be
recessed head fixings, which tend to have a metal pin
running down the centre and are therefore more heatconductive,
or plastic fixings, with reinforced plastic
pins running down the core, having a lower χ-value
than the recessed head types.
Where mineral fibre fire breaks are used, these are
usually fully adhesively bonded and mechanically
fixed, with additional fixings through the render
reinforcement mesh so that, in the event of the EPS
insulation melting away in a fire, the reinforced
render system, which will be very heavy on a
multistorey building, is still mechanically secured to
the load-bearing substrate.
The analysis below is based on horizontal fire
breaks at each floor level.”

[SimmondsMills]

Heinbloed

Let us know (if you know/find out) whether the german examples worked to these or similar standards.
I might ask the Passivhaus Institut if they have a view on this issue.

[Author]

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