Go to Forum Home Materials and products Icynene – alternative to Warmcel?

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    • #31065
      Tom Foster
      Participant

        What opinions of Icynene? – see my summary 15.2.09 in this http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3341&page=1#Item_10

      • #35803
        Mark Siddall
        Participant

          Tom
          You could call this “spray-in-place foam insulation”

          Anyway…. Not convinced by spray-in-place foam insulation. This also goes by the name of Flash foam. I first heard of it being used in a PassivHaus being built in the USA and this led me make some enquiries. The key problems are:

          1) For PH standards of airtigthness it is not “the” solution as it I have been told by an experienced builder in the US (that has constructed super inusulated homes for many years and now has started PassivHaus) it “does nothing to address the gaps between multiple studs and lintels over openings” i.e. still need standard airtight details using a continuous barrier.
          2) The foam layer is usually built up in layers 12-25mm thick. It then has to be left to cure before the next layer is added. Does this save time?
          3) If possible foam insulation should be used sparingly due to petrochemical content and high embodied energy. (Unlike Warmcell which is recycled news paper and has a low embodied energy.)
          4) The USA has great deal of experience with these products. Much of it is bad.
          For example in some installations shrinkage has split the foam all over the place and distorted framing members. Furthermore Michael LeBeau (my contact) notes that “cracks develop in foam several months after installation. If you stick a knife in year old foam it starts a crack that can open up for several feet and can be wide enough to get my hand in. Of course most of the time everything is covered up by the time this shrinkage occurs.” That troubles both me and Michael.
          5) As it is an American product does it comply with ZODP and does it have a GWP of less than 3? (I'd lost interest by this point so didn't check.)

          So, an alternative to Warmcell? I think not.
          Mark

        • #35804
          Anonymous

            Hello Mark,

            Maybe some test walls are in order for the different new products available. Testing to see how they age and if the manufacturers claims are accurate for infiltration reduction properties and insulation value. Some of the open cell foams have been problematic in cold climates as they need a separate air/vapor barrier to keep the insulated cavity from excess moisture retention.
            I am also concerned about shrinkage of some of the foam products, infrared scanning of some built housing using open cell foams may possibly show shrinkage gaps.

          • #35805
            Mark Siddall
            Participant

              Hi Doug,
              Yes, I agree, test samples would be a good way of learning about the pros and cons.

              By the way. I understand that these spray foams got band for a while in the US. Then at some laterl date a number of states reviewed how to the foams could be used and some rigorous QA procedures were established (adding to the cost of instalation).

              Mark

            • #35806
              Anonymous

                Mark,

                I am by no means an expert on foam insulation but some of the early spray in place foams in the U.S. contained formaldehyde. I applaud the industry for seeking a more environmentally friendly foam product, time will tell if the water based foams are durable and cost effective.

                Closed cell foams like spray polyurethane have been used with good results, the air sealing properties are good and the R-value is somewhere around 6.5 per inch. The concern with this family of products is the blowing agent used, HCFC's raise havoc on the atmosphere and we need to demand more environmentally friendly manufacturing processes.

                Are spray foams durable and cost effective and does the long term benefit (increased efficiency) outweigh the short term global warming (HCFC,CFC)consequences? Acelerated testing would help with durability concerns for the water based foams, an honest scientific evaluation for the others, polyurethane, extruded polystyrene and the like is in order.

                I have and still use some extruded polystyrene and polyurethane foam board products, in some detail areas, they work very well. I am trying to substitute with higher density expanded polystyrene where feasable.

                Doug

              • #35807
                Nick Grant
                Participant

                  A lot of detail to wade through but I want to pick up on 'airtightness'. Tom, unless I am reading you wrong you seen to be suggesting the foam can act as an air barrier. Great to prevent convection etc in the insulation but not bulk air movement through the structure, would still need an air barrier and IMHO an external wind proof layer as well for good measure. Mark S will hopefully pick up on this as he is presenting an excellent paper on it at Frankfurt PH conference this year (and hopefully at the AECB Conference?).

                  Nick

                • #35808
                  Tom Foster
                  Participant

                    Running felt vertically trapped by battens – that's good,

                    80m2 house, say 400m3 and 300m2 external surface x 0.0049 litre/s.m2 @75Pa air permeability as quoted by Icynene > 5.3m3/h = 0.013 ac/h – at higher Pa! That seems near enough 100% airtight, so in-use performance would depend entirely on installation gaps, freedom from cracks etc longterm, connection to windows and other membrane types elsewhere. Just like a continuous membrane in fact!

                    Before we (I) dismiss Icynene (or Warmcel) as airtight barrier, on these figures Icynene looks v good. What do you think? I do like things that do the job inherently and robustly, without recourse to fragile membranes etc.

                  • #35809
                    Mark Siddall
                    Participant

                      Tom,
                      What you need to find the airleakage at the untreated joints (this was you can guage the remedial work required.)

                      To limit heat losses incurred by air movement to less than 15%* Canadian research suggests that an Air Leakage of < 0.07 m3/(m2 h @ 75 Pa) is required for the barrier. Incuding the joints <0.72 m3/(m2 h @ 75 Pa. Also note that a PE air barrier has a non-measureable (as they say in Canada) air leakage i.e. 0.00 lt/s/m2 h @ 75 Pa. 8mm Plywood has 0.0067 lt/s/m2 @ 75 Pa so Icynene is not all that special.

                      Mark

                      * 15% of what? U-value unknown at this time! (I'm trying to find out)

                    • #35810
                      Nick Grant
                      Participant

                        NB I have edited my post as when replying in haste I missed out a decimal point calculating leakage in m/h from l/sec. So yes foam quite airtight.

                        Nick

                      • #35811
                        Tom Foster
                        Participant

                          Canadian research suggests that an Air Leakage of < 0.07 m3/(m2 h @ 75 Pa) is required for the barrier

                          Icynene claim 0.0049!

                          Incuding the joints <0.72 m3/(m2 h @ 75 Pa

                          That's the challenge! The question is, are tape joints of unknown longterm durability a better or worse prospect for continuity/joints, than in-depth integral airtightness of an expanding and adhesive mass material like Icynene (or Warmcel, without the benefit of adhesion).

                          8mm Plywood has 0.0067 lt/s/m2 @ 75 Pa so Icynene is not all that special.

                          but it is in the top rank!

                          I'm still open to decision either way – to me it looks finely balanced, and my worry about tape joints is considerable.

                        • #35812
                          Mark Siddall
                          Participant

                            Tom,
                            PE and OSB are far more dimensionally stable and have fewer joints/m2 (can oversail rather than having to sit between studs). Also, though I'm aware of the Warmcell “plugs the gaps” arguement it should not be considered as an airtightness solution.

                            With the risk of the Icynene insulation shrinking you have not only airtightness issues but thermal bridging issues to contend with. Going back to point up all the joints seems labour intensive and expensive (by the way who mentioned tapes to remediate this? I reckon that you'd need low expansion foam). Finally as the material shrinks there is also the threat that convective loops could develop undermining performance.

                            This does not look finely balanced to me. Spray in place is chock with risk and uncertainty. In my view still an unwise solution.
                            Mark

                          • #35813
                            Nick Grant
                            Participant

                              Mark Brinkley has started a discussion on his blog. More about U value claims although not clear if they are claiming magic properties as yet unexplained by science, as multifoils, or just that the foam achieves a reliable U value with no degradation due to air movement.

                              ie is the foam better than hot box suggests or are other insulations worse in reality.

                              http://markbrinkley.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-icynene.html

                            • #35814
                              Anonymous

                                Did we get to some kind of consensus opinion on this? Just been to see a new build in Kent, the insulation will be warmcel but the owner/designer says she'd have used Icynene LDR50 if she'd found out about it earlier. Castor oil and water…

                              • #35815
                                Anonymous

                                  Tahir
                                  I guess you are referring to Carol’s house. I am building a PassivHaus which I designed using the PHPP and which I hope to have certified. I have been trying to decide between Warmcel and Icynene for some time, both having advantages and disadvantages. I am now leaning towards using Icynene LDR50 even though it is slightly more expensive. I hope to produce a diary of the build, detailing construction methods.

                                • #35816
                                  Anonymous

                                    Yup it is Carol's house, very nice I thought.

                                  • #35817
                                    Tom Foster
                                    Participant

                                      Any more on Icynene? The project on which I was weighing up Warmcell vs Icynene didn't happen.

                                    • #35818
                                      Anonymous

                                        I see there's a Jeff Hood who works for Icynene:

                                        Vice-President, Sales – International (Europe, South & Central Americas): Jeff Hood
                                        (source http://www.icynene.com/mediaroom/index.html)

                                        I guess you're not aware that generally in this country and on this board in particular we prefer people to declare any commercial interests they have. I see you didn't mention your website or email in your profile either.

                                        I think you'll also find you get more traction here by adopting a less competitive approach than is sometimes usual in north America. You might like to start by explaining about Fourier's second law of thermodynamics and how it differs from the regular second law of thermodynamics accepted by most people. And especially about how it explains your statements about 3% more energy.

                                        Having said that, people are keen to hear the facts about icynene and the other soy-based foams.

                                      • #35819
                                        Mark Siddall
                                        Participant

                                          The issue of heat transfer needs to be married in with lifecycle costs. You then find that there is a plateaux that is reached at about 300-500mm. As an economic range this also allows for the mitigation of energy demand and co2 emissions.

                                        • #35820
                                          Tom Foster
                                          Participant

                                            I'm aware of only two between-studs insulations that are capable of providing an in-depth air barrier which, while not being as absolute as a newly-installed plastic membrane /tapes/mastics, should last indefinitely and be immune to drills, saws and other accidents, and won't suffer from environmental degradation/embrittlement, nor from the constant 'working' of pressure reversals gradually pull-pulling at the tape joints.

                                            The air-test guys and the building fault diagnosis boys do tell the same tale – of tape joints beginning to part even after one year. It seems incredible to me that anyone still puts their faith in fragile membranes and sticky tapes, however impressively tough and grab-some they seem to be. It's inconceivable that they will last the life of even a 25yr building, let alone one built for posterity.

                                            We have to abandon those membranes and tapes and find robust tolerant durable alternatives. OSB glued and screwed; quality mastic injected into a cleaned 3mm in-depth gap with backing strip; blown-in Warmcel; sprayed/foamed-in-place Icynene. Any others?

                                          • #35821
                                            Mark Siddall
                                            Participant

                                              So how does spray foam achieve it's airtightness when you have two studs abutting one another? There will be a air leakage gap between the two studs. Similarly sole plates, first floor junctions and eaves details etc all pose similar challanges. Due to coordinateing dims windows may be less of a problem. There are European examples of homes that have had 5 and 15 year air tests and no decay in performance has been determined. These homes have an air leakge of < 0.6 ach @ 50pa (some built examples of < 0.3 ach @50pa). So how do these spay foam products really compare? It strikes me that for robust performance the air barrier can not be in the same plane as the studs – which it the method that you seem to suggest.

                                              Mark

                                              P.S. There are only two taping systems that I have heard of that are considered to be sufficienctly robust one is Pro-Clima (from Green Building Store) and the other is SIGA (from NBT). Both products have been recomeneded to me by two different building physicists – so there appears to be some convergent thinking on this.

                                            • #35822
                                              Tom Foster
                                              Participant

                                                Great PS about 'if you must' tapes Mark – thanks.

                                                Your other questioning about spray foam – I assume you'd ask the same about blown Warmcell? Or not? NB I'd put no faith in other spray foams – only Icynene.

                                                I would not rely on Icynene or Warmcell alone. As recently discussed on http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5657&page=1#Item_27,
                                                and referring back to previous http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=4167&page=2,
                                                this is my current spec:
                                                tiles/slates on battens over metallised breather felt, shiny side down, draped over 35×50 downslope battens on 100 EPS or wood fibre on 9 OSB3 glued and screwed (as air barrier cum slight vapour check) to 145 high rafters with blown Warmcel or sprayed Icynene between (as supplementary, long-term robust, un-puncturable air barrier), plasterboard and skim beneath.

                                                Note no VCL – this is a breathing construction, with the 'inboard' vapour check (the OSB) about 5 x the vap resistance of the outboard breather. It seems from Euler-diagram condensation-check program that having the 'inboard' resistor not strictly 'inboard' but that far out thro the insulation is satisfactory. However, no-one should take my word for that – make your own check and satisfy yourself.

                                                two studs abutting one another

                                                If you mean two studs side by side, I wouldn't – if necessary structurally I'd specify a fatter timber.
                                                If you mean abutting as at a corner, so there's free space in the angle between them, then that space wd be filled with the insulant, closing the through-gap between the studs.

                                                Similarly sole plates, first floor junctions and eaves details etc

                                                I dunno – I seem to avoid any such problems Sole plate on conc/masonry wd of course be bedded on mastic.

                                                for robust performance the air barrier can not be in the same plane as the studs – which it the method that you seem to suggest

                                                I think I'm suggesting a tea-cosy –
                                                not only of EWI-type (incl roof) insulation ouitboard of the studs/rafters
                                                but also of the air barrier, in the form of OSB glued and screwed to outer face of studs/rafters
                                                which could still be breached whether during construction or long in-use life,
                                                so as an extra-robust (but not so absolutely tight) supplementary air barrier in the form of blown Warmcel or Icynene between the studs/rafters.

                                              • #35823
                                                Mark Siddall
                                                Participant

                                                  Tom,
                                                  Warmcell is certainly not an air barrier. (Yes, yes it can tidy up some sloppy UK building but it is not an air barrier.)

                                                  Mark

                                                • #35824
                                                  Tom Foster
                                                  Participant

                                                    Has anyone told Excel that? They seem to claim airtightness e.g.

                                                    From http://www.excelfibre.com/press/2006/warmcel-at-ecobuild.html : Warmcel ensures that the entire wall cavity is completely filled with insulation, eliminating gaps, cracks or other cold bridges, thereby delivering an airtight solution.

                                                    And from http://www.ecowise.ie/warmcel.html : Warmcel is Airtight
                                                    When cellulose is installed to a density of 48 Kg/M3 or more, it acquires a unique air-sealing ability.

                                                    I've never got any hard data out of Excel about this, except some test Wimpey did, which seemed to prove little either way – what's the source of your info or knowledge, Mark?

                                                  • #35825
                                                    Mark Siddall
                                                    Participant

                                                      If memory serves the Canadian building scientists define an air barrier as having an air leakage of < 0.07 m3 @75pa and an air barrier system if it has an air leakage of < 0.7m3 @75pa. Their test data shows that fibreous materials can not satisty these criteria i.e. you need a proper air barrier system.

                                                      Whilst it may be that the Warmcell did help to plug a few gaps that sloppy UK workmanship presented is it really reliable and long term? It may have helped to cork a few gaps (just like secondary sealing with a low expansion foam) but that'll be about it.

                                                    • #35826
                                                      Tom Foster
                                                      Participant

                                                        I'll try again to see what Excel really say. Warmcell must be different to ad-hoc plugging – it's systematic and continuous, for whatever it's ideally worth. It depends totally on no slumping, so that's a major objective that has to be detailed in. Given that, anything else I'm overlooking, about why it wouldn't it be reliable long term (as far as its best-case air performance goes)?

                                                      • #35827
                                                        SimmondsMills
                                                        Participant

                                                          Foam seems to expand with amazing rapidity – see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o6M4a-Fhqg&NR=1
                                                          On another video I noticed the installer spraying a very light coat over the wall studs, presumably to link the foam between studs for airtightness and to reduce heat loss through studs? But also noticed the final cut with the long saw blade to cut back to face of timber studs – a conflict?

                                                        • #35828
                                                          SimmondsMills
                                                          Participant

                                                            I think we would also seriously consider doing this – but with some areas of felt cut out and a vapour open sheathing membrane fitted to drain to eaves. I think this could be possible as I wouldnt want to introduce (waste) 50mm of 'ventilated' airspace between the rafters before the foam is sprayed. as this discussion progresses I will develop a proposed detail for this

                                                          • #35829
                                                            SimmondsMills
                                                            Participant

                                                              Claus – I think we want to aim for a U Value circa 0.12 – 0.15 if we can – so we would need to build a layer and structure to support the insulation(s) back into the loft space.
                                                              I imagine the loft will only be used for MVHR duct runs and storage, rather than as habitable space – but the loft space would be within the airtight and thermal envelope, although without heat emitters (radiators) in the loft it will be cooler than the main house.

                                                              Jeff – do we need to protect the foam for fire spread reasons? Can it be directly rendered/plastered?

                                                              To avoid the risk of unavoidable gaps/shrinkage/damage etc and perhaps some general diffusion leading to water vapour movement from warm space to cold side of construction (leading to potential interstitial condensation on underside of existing bituminous felt) – I do feel that we shouldl find a cheap way to make the bit. felt more vapour open without risking roof leak water ingress into the construction AND without reroofing – to this end, some ideas:

                                                              a) if we perforated the roof felt in some way – would the icythene, when sprayed, prevent direct ingress of water from a broken tile getting past the felt/foam interface – or would the foam potentially get damp and give rise to more risk to the rafters than interstitial condensation?
                                                              b) if we cut out larger areas of bit. felt and replaced it with vapour open roofing membrane, then spryaed would this be a solution – remembering of course to lap the new membrane in the right way to deal with any water ingress.

                                                            • #35830
                                                              SimmondsMills
                                                              Participant

                                                                Claus – what did the Isospray rep say about the risk of interstitial condensation risk leading to early decay of the rafters?!

                                                              • #35831
                                                                Anonymous

                                                                  Sorry I don't have any more on the ParISOTherm system other than what is on the Peinteco website http://www.peinteco.com/lemoniteurDec09.pdf

                                                                • #35832
                                                                  Anonymous

                                                                    If there is interest though I can see what more details I can obtain.

                                                                  • #35833
                                                                    Tom Foster
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      And got reply – Jeff Hood now retired from Icynene.

                                                                    • #35834
                                                                      SimmondsMills
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        It's now 2015, nearly 2016! I was just 'passing' this old post, thought I'd add a teaser for any eagle eyed ppl – that u should expect low vapour resistance spray foam applications coming onto the IWI market soon…

                                                                      • #35835
                                                                        Tom Foster
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          That was 4 months ago …?

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